[PATCH] Carthaginian fleet should be actually stronger

[elexis]

The history section says that carthaginian ships were "among the fiercest contenders on the high seas". So it seems wrong that they have average ships like every other civ with small triremes and worse ships than britons, gauls, mauryans and iberians who have big trireme ships ("medium warship").

I suggest to give them something like +20% HP, attack damage and cost.

[fatherbushido]

Take care that the tech affects Merchant Ship and Fisher Boat (perhaps it's ok).

Else, it seems that carth have yet many advantages

carthaginians/training_phoenician_naval_architects carthaginians/special_exploration cheaper dock access to merchant ship at phase 1 super dock which can repair boats access to heavy warship trader gain bonus for merchant ship

Despite that, i agree the medium warship issue and think the naval needs to be rebased.

[elexis]

On irc today:

19:08 < scythetwirler> elexis: might as well fix, that's an easy change
19:10 < scythetwirler> it's historical accuracy
19:10 < scythetwirler> and afaik, it doesn't really sacrifice gameplay

Increasing the health and attack damage is a very dull approach.

In a discussion with Prodigalson it surfaced that giving them just a vision range and movement speed bonus will allow them to be used more intelligently, rather than just being stronger in direct ship to ship battle and justify the among the fiercest contenders on the high seas statement.

[elexis]

I wasn't aware of special_exploration increasing the vision range for all ships already. It should be a bit more in my opinion, 50% bonus total total did well in my tests. The other techs mentioned by fatherbushido are nice and sound, but they don't really add to the fiercest part in direct ship battle in particular. So I still suggest increasing the movement speed by 30%.

[fatherbushido]

agree, merge it in the tech ?

[mimo]

Don't forget that cart merchant ships already have a 25% trade bonus. So increasing their speed by 30% will give them a 50% bonus. Not that i am a priori against, but we should be sure that this is well balanced.

[scythetwirler]

I'd still prefer to add some more combat value to fiercest. Movement speed doesn't really help unless you're pursuing or fleeing. Perhaps we could add the ability to train ranged siege to the Heavy Warship and maybe give Medium Warship either an arrow bonus or a garrison bonus?

[fatherbushido]

Perhaps the tip assertion could be revised too ? (compare to roman for example).

[elexis]

Moving to the new WIP milestone.

[elexis]

Certainly there shouldn't be a second trade bonus, so the attached patch is wrong.

[elexis]

scythetwirler do you happen to know how we can justify more attack damage to ships historically besides the loading screen string?

From ​http://www.ancient.eu/Carthaginian_Naval_Warfare/

The Carthaginians were famed in antiquity for their seafaring skills and innovation in ship design For three centuries prior to the Punic Wars, though, the Carthaginian fleet ruled the waves. Carthaginians were admired across the ancient Mediterranean not only for their seamanship but also the quality of their ships

constructed using mass-produced pieces marked with numbers for ease of assembly

-> faster construction speed

The wood used for ships was oak, fir, and pine

-> More HP or armor

bigger and faster ships with four and five men per oar, the quadrireme and quinquereme. The quinquereme, so called for its arrangement of five rowers per vertical line of three oars, became the most widely used in the Punic fleet

-> New ship type, maybe new model

The main aim in a naval battle was to ram

-> Well

I'd still add some civ bonus to carthaginian ships just to highlight that it was their civ who was the best for a long time on the sea trade and the bonus should be actually useful ingame (which rules out almost entirely irrelevant construction speed)

[Imarok]

Move tickets to Simulation as UI & Simulation got some sub components.